Women Thriving in Construction (Ep 19) | Dr. Helen Lingard Discusses AUS Case Study

I'm so grateful to our collaborative partners, the Australian Constructors Association (ACA) and NAWIC Australia, and to Dr. Helen Lingard of RMIT and SHINe and her co-author Dr. Michelle Turner for sponsoring and authoring our first country-specific white paper, which highlights several initiatives to support women in construction in Australia. Helen joined us on the Women Thriving in Construction podcast to share insights from the paper, things she said even she wasn't aware were happening. Given her extensive industry experience, Helen has many insights to share that are relevant throughout the world. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Women Thriving in Construction, a podcast of the International Institute for Women in Construction. Interested in building a global movement? We are. We want to help solve the global construction talent shortage by highlighting organizations, associations, unions, teams, and individuals who are implementing strategies that help attract, develop, and retain women in construction. Join us as we reshape industry thinking. This is Dr. Gretchen Gagel, and I am so excited to welcome RMIT distinguished professor, Dr. Helen Lingard, to the Women Thriving in Construction podcast. Welcome, Helen. Thanks, Gretchen. And not only are you, I should mention, not only a distinguished professor at RMIT, but also the executive director of the Shine program, the Safety Health Innovation Network here in Australia as well. And really excited to have you on the podcast today. And before we dive into our important topic, I always like to start by asking our guests, what made you passionate about what you care about today? What in your life journey caused you to care about doing research in construction and caring about safety and culture and things like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, well, uh I I was, I did my first degree in politics and I wanted to be a journalist. And I was living in Hong Kong in the early 1990s. At a time when there were a lot of construction industry fatalities, they were building a lot of major infrastructure projects, and there was a lot of very high rate of fatal incidents in the industry, and it started to get some media attention. And being a sort of a somebody who was an aspiring journalist, I got very interested in it. And I started to work as a researcher for a professor of civil engineering at the University of Hong Kong, and after a short while became very, very passionate about the subject, believing it to be very important, which it is. And I ended up getting a PhD scholarship and doing a doctorate in construction workers' health and safety in Hong Kong in the early 1990s. And really, when I graduated from that, I worked for a civil engineering contracting organization in the industry in Hong Kong and the rest is history, really. But it was, I guess, observing at that point in time the challenges around safety in the industry and just how significant the human costs are of things going wrong in the industry. And starting to be you know be concerned and interested to the point of studying it at doctorate level and then and then uh then then pursuing a career in this area.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

And it is so interesting. I mean, you you I've been in the industry 43 years. You're you're you know behind me a bit. Um, but seeing that that focus that occurred in the 80s and 90s where we kind of sat up and it you know, my my background in during that time would have been in America and the construction industry roundtable and the construction industry institute and a lot of the large owners, especially in oil and gas, we had a significant incident in Texas and really saying, hey, we're killing too many people, and we need to do something about that. But we still in America, we still kill a thousand people a year in construction. And because my my daughter and my son are both in the industry, I kind of care about that, right? Yeah, and and now we've extended that to think about the mental side of safety as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yes, yeah, and of course, uh, I mean in Australia, um, the construction industry is still one of the industries in which there are more um occupational deaths, work-related deaths in other sectors. Um, and of course, we do have a a much stronger emphasis now on the mental health, and and suicide is a is a big problem in the industry. I believe you're six times more likely to die by suicide in the Australian construction industry than you would be uh you know, uh through a workplace fatality and a you know an acute injury type um incident. So it's there is a lot of attention, and organizations like Mates in Construction and IncoLink are doing really good work around mental health and suicide prevention in the industry, to the point where I saw some statistics the other day, and in fact, we are seeing um a falling in in the instance of suicide in the industry at a much more rapid rate than than in the broader Australian community, which I think is is is attributable to some of those programs. And I believe Mates in Construction has just started up in the US as well. So they're doing some fabulous work.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, it's great. They've been on um my the other podcast, the Greatness Podcast, yeah, pre-IWIC having a podcast, and they're doing great work. And that statistic I've heard in in the United States is you're four to five times more likely to die of suicide than than be killed on, and having just been in London, I think they said five times. So, you know, it's interesting these global conversations, which was a big driver of um why the International Institute for Women in Construction was started. And you and I met uh while I was serving on the construction industry culture task force for Australia, and these bells started going off, going, Oh my gosh, we are having almost the same conversation in Australia with about the same statistics about a lot of things. But that's when I started kind of getting focused in on women in construction after Wiley asked me to write that book about um women leading in construction. And having just been in London meeting with 40 or 50 industry leaders there, they're having the exact same conversations there. So it's like, okay, let's start some kind of a global movement. So what I'm so grateful for, the purpose of this podcast, Women Thriving in Construction, and really IWIC, but this is one vehicle, is to share stories globally of things that are working to attract, to develop, and retain women in construction, so that we can learn from one another, so that we inspire action, right? Because there might be some incredible program. Um, you know, I've I've just learned there's still a program going on. I learned about years ago. I think it's in um it's in the south of the US, somewhere where one of the ABC chapters, the Associated Builders and Contractors, is recruiting low-income mothers and their high school graduating daughters together into the trades in a buddy system. What a great idea. Yeah, right. And we're creating that um that support network. We're lifting a woman out of poverty and we're giving her daughter a path. So that's the purpose of this. But what what you did, Helen, is you agreed and Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology and the Association Um uh Australian Constructors Association, John Davies, who's just stepping down as CEO and being followed by Peter, who I'm gonna butcher his last name, I know it. Um Colacino. I'll I'll figure that out when I meet with Peter. And also Catherine Greville, who is the CEO of the National Association of Women in Construction, Nawick, Australia, um, agreed to work with IWIC on our first country-specific white paper. So we've never done this before, right? We're just about to hit our one-year anniversary, actually. We should have some kind of celebration about that, um, of being a nonprofit. And I approached you. Um, actually, John is the one who suggested you, and when I got this idea and said, let what if we did in a white paper that was in like an not comp, we can't cover every initiative happening in Australia, but what are some of the key initiatives that are working that we could share with the rest of the world? What was your motivation when when Crazy Gretchen comes along and says, hey, um, John, Catherine, Helen, um, we should do this?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

What was my motivation? Well, I I think look, for me, um, it's a really interesting topic, a topic I'm fascinated by. And, you know, to be asked to do something of that kind by by you, Gretchen, and knowing the good work that you're doing in the Institute for International Institute for Women in Construction, and also what John Davis had done in the ACA to promote women in construction and improve culture in the industry, and and then Catherine as well, obviously in Narwick, doing some incredible work. It just seemed like a really good opportunity to work with people who are actually doing great things for our industry in this space to um to sort of have a look at what what was going on. And to be absolutely honest, it was it was a really interesting exercise because it uncovered for me things that I wasn't even aware of, um, and or things that I might have been sort of superficially aware of but didn't really know the details of what these organizations were actually doing. Um, and so I was able to summarise, I guess, the uh the main initiatives that I could identify, um, noting that there will undoubtedly be many others that that I didn't find or uncover in the time that was available, but exciting really to document and see how much good work there is being done by so many different groups in the industry. So pulling all that together and you know sharing it is actually a very exciting opportunity for us. And for me, it was exciting to just see that that there is in fact enormous amounts of good work going on, and that probably is is uh is the reason why we are getting gradually, gradually more women in the industry, both in professional managerial roles and and trade-based roles, albeit slower than we would like.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

The numbers are heading in the right direction. Yeah, well, and shining a light on that great work and figuring out how to scale it. And it's interesting when you and I met to go over one of the drafts, and you made a comment to me that two organizations had even connected to collaborate through the process of writing the paper, right? Which is exactly what we're trying to get people to do, is connect the dots, collaborate, leverage our resources to accelerate, to ignite, to not to replicate, but to bring synergies to what everybody's doing so that we are moving the needles faster.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah, absolutely. Because one of the things that came out of the paper is that there's you know great initiatives being undertaken at the federal government level here in Australia. We've got the National Construction Industry Forum that endorsed a blueprint for the future in September in 2025, and that had some very clear objectives around improving um gender equality in the industry, removing structural barriers to women's participation and so on. Um, and so that that's going on at the federal government level, but then at the state and territory government level, we've got governments also instigating um initiatives and and programs in at the level of procurement, where they're they're they're building gender diversity and inclusion um requirements into the procurement methods that they use to apply to the construction industry. So, you know, contractors engaging and bidding for government-funded construction work are now required to do certain things to um to improve uh inclusion and and and increase the numbers numbers of women at all levels in those organizations, in those projects, rather. Um, so we've got these these federal government and state government initiatives, but what was really exciting was to see examples where those government agencies that are driving those policy initiatives teaming up with organizations like the Australian Constructors Association in an initiative like the Culture and Construction project, which you were part of, Gretchen, and actually trying to really change the culture of the industry to make sure that when these government programs are effective in attracting women to the sector, that the culture of the industry is such that they're likely to stay and thrive. Because there's that, you know, that's a serious consideration as well, as one thing getting women into the sector, but when they get there, what are their experiences going to be like? And without addressing the culture piece, um that's that's likely to be challenging in in current conditions. So the fact that we were seeing governments working together with industry associations and and others to uh and other not-for-profits to really you know take a more holistic approach to the problem is very, very exciting, and that came out very clearly in some of the initiatives that were documented in the paper.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Well, and we and we have to. I mean, three weeks ago I was speaking to the construction industry roundtable in America, which is 130 of the largest engineering and construction companies, CEOs. And we we need everybody, we need everyone to link arms and come together to make these things happen. Um, and and this point about keeping women, one of the statistics I found out while I was in England, they've done a study of 275 organizations. The Supply Chain Sustainability School has this fairness and fairness, inclusion, and respect report. 49% of women leave the industry before the age of 34. Oh, yes. So it's not, you know, they're in and out, man. This isn't this isn't um and so I've been I've been noodling. What do you think here in Australia? I mean, how how many people do we have in Australia now? 27 million, 28 million population, somewhere around there, I don't know. And we're hovering at about that, I think, overall uh uh 12% overall women in construction.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yes, yeah, and and just over 3% in trade. So it drops off, you know, when you look at the trades workforce.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Almost identical to the United States and and the UK. Um so what do you think is motivating, and we've had Margot Brazil on this podcast who's running the New South Wales program, where they've invested that's the state that Sydney's in for our foreign listeners, um, $20 million over three years and have now been funded again on some really innovative things. What do you what do you think is motivating government in Australia to invest specifically in getting more women into construction?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Good it's a good question. And and look, I mean, I I think part of it is is considering that gender equality is is good for society. It's um it makes for a fairer, safer, and and more inclusive society in general. But the Australian construction industry is facing a dire skills shortage as well. Um so by mid-2027, I think the the labour shortfall in the industry is projected to be 300,000 workers. Um if you actually look at the landscape in Australia and what the government is investing in in terms of infrastructure construction, we've got you know the transport infrastructure construction program is is continuing. Um but we've now got the energy, uh the renewable energy transformation infrastructure program and the housing accord by which the government, the federal government have committed to the construction of a phenomenal program of housing to deal with with the housing crisis that we're facing. So when you actually look at all the projects that are in the pipeline and and and the aspirations for building really critical infrastructure, we haven't got enough workers in the industry currently to deliver that. Um and so the recruitment of people from from groups who are currently underrepresented is is is extremely important, and and the retention of those people. And so, you know, while I think there's a really important social and equality reason to be focused on these things, there's also a very real um economic imperative as well. And um it's it's a very important thing that that has to be done in order to to meet the demand faced by the sector. And of course, improving improving the performance of the sector, because you know, to to have to have a more diverse um and inclusive uh environment and a more diverse workforce is is going to be good for all sorts of uh areas of performance in the industry as well, um as being uh valuable in and of itself.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yeah, it's interesting because uh in the last year and a half since um starting iWIC, I haven't had anybody tell me it's a bad idea. So you know, everyone thinks it's a good idea. It's just how we do it, how we how we advance the culture, how we do um different things. And so so obviously the the white paper, which by the way is available on our website, iiwic.org. That's iWick, iwic.org. You can clearly find this Australian white paper there. And and this, you're you're the trailblazer. We're hoping to do white papers with other countries as well, but you're first out of the gate, so that's why I'm so grateful when somebody's willing to be first, because there's really wasn't a model, and you did such an amazing job with this paper. So government is one of the areas that you looked at. Um, anything else else on the government initiatives you'd like to highlight before we move on to some of the association initiatives?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Um no, suffice to say that that at federal and state government levels, there's really there are really good initiatives going on. And um excuse me, the New South Wales Government Women in Construction Program uh has been funding all sorts of case studies of initiatives that that are being undertaken by a whole range of different groups, um, not-for-profits, um, industry associations and others, and and those case studies highlight um you know innovative initiatives that have been uh implemented in the industry that that are targeted towards attracting and and retaining more women into the sector. And those case studies are really worth a look because there is some there is some really innovative stuff going on. Um the white paper couldn't cover all of it because there's such a diverse range of initiatives that have been implemented by so many different groups, uh, but valuable lessons to be learned. And because one of the things that the um New South Wales government required as part of that program was to demonstrate scalability and sustainability, a lot of those initiatives are things that are in fact, you know, now being adopted more broadly than within the organizations that initially trialed them, because they are in fact, you know, very good ideas for the whole sector to consider adopting.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

That is one thing I really appreciate about the construction industry culture task force bringing in academics and a rigor around evaluation so that we knew whether something really worked or it didn't and why, and we're going to try things that don't work, but we need to understand why they don't, and the scalability and sustainability. Um and yeah, that's the exciting part. So let's shift gears over to the associations. What were some of your were your key findings when it came to work that associations are doing to attract, develop, and retain women in construction?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Well, the associations are doing some some good good things, and I would, you know, particularly obviously the Australian Constructors Association, not only did they, you know, part fund and and and contribute considerably in to the construction industry culture task force work, um, which developed a culture standard, which was then trialled in five construction projects across Australia and New South Wales and Victoria over an extended period of time. Um, and that piece of work I think was really groundbreaking because what the culture standard did was it required organisations to address three core issues, um, time for life, mental health, or sorry, health and well-being, and gender diversity and inclusion. And what was what was interesting was that of those three things, time for life came out as possibly the most important of those three pillars, because if we get time for life, decent working hours, a work schedule that works for people with family responsibilities and caring responsibilities and um and those things right, and flexible work provisions are uh part of that as well. Um, if we get those things right, then we're likely to get benefits in both inclusion, more inclusive workplaces, and also health and well-being. So, in fact, that time for life pillar, we kind of agreed as a group that that was in fact probably of the three the most important. But but with notwithstanding that, the um the diversity and inclusion pillar also required some very specific things to be implemented around creating more inclusive workplaces and particularly with a focus on gender. Um, the the companies that adopted that culture standard in the five pilot projects demonstrated that it could could work. There was some concern initially about will it work on particularly horizontal projects? You know, for example, the the civil engineering projects, which have you know more more challenges, I guess, around you know, shift changing work schedules and working more family-friendly hours. But in fact, it was it was demonstrated to be effective in both vertical and horizontal type construction projects. And the research component that supported that was, you know, as you said, Gabe Gretchen, quite quite rigorous. We collected data, my team actually looked after that research piece, and we collected data from those five projects over their over their entire life. We followed three of the projects from commencement to completion, doing multiple waves of interviews, multiple waves of surveying. A team of economists alongside us, Frontier Economics looked at the cost benefit aspects of. That work and demonstrated that those projects didn't cost more to deliver and nor did they take longer to deliver. So that element of it was looked at as well. And in fact, we know that the projects on average had a higher percentage of women employed at those projects compared to the parent construction companies and their other comparable projects. So it that it was a great success story, you know, led by the Victorian government, New South Wales government, and the ACA. And that was one of their really big initiatives. But aside from that, the ACA also, their members also have all signed a culture and construction pledge which committed them to the Australian Constructors Association culture pledge in 2023. The ACA members signed a culture pledge that had three components. One was to establish workplace flexibility policies to guarantee people would have access to flexible work arrangements, which is a big thing for attracting and retaining women. The other thing was to ensure that 75% of ACA members would achieve an employer of choice citation by the Australian Government Workplace Gender Equality Agency by 2028. And that's no mean fee. So to get that Wu Gea Employer of Choice citation is actually really hard. And to commit that you know that these ACA members would achieve that is a strong and significant commitment. And they also developed a programme as part of that to try and attract women from other industries and in mid-career women who were from other industries to come to the industry to see what construction was like and see if we could attract women who might be looking for a career change to the sector. So they did a lot of work around that. And honestly, I do think what the ACA have done in that area is really groundbreaking, has made a big difference because the ACA represents the largest construction companies in Australia who are our tier one companies who then employ many other organizations in their supply chains. So of course, this these these initiatives filter down into their supply chains to influence companies of smaller sizes as well as as as they you know they engage with them.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah, it's the tone from the top. I mean, it and once again, that's exactly what I was talking to the construction industry roundtable about in the United States and plan to talk to Build UK or the CLC in the UK, different organizations over there. It's how how do we how do we show this kind of commitment? Because this is these are this is multi-pronged. And we um we had Dean Rija with Fulton Hogan on the podcast to talk about one of the pilot projects. Didn't want to do the podcast. That's so fun to come on podcast with me. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to come on a podcast with me. Um, and he did have fun, but they gave people, it was either 22 or 23 days back of their life during the life of that project without impact to schedule, productivity, budget. This is um, you can have your cake and eat it too. I do believe we don't have to grind people down to a nub on our projects. And so this time for life and the commitment, the pledge that ACA has um really set the tone for this. And and Nawik really as a partner in that and some of the things they're they're they're doing as an association.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Of course, yeah. There's a whole bunch of not-for-profit organizations, Nauik being one of them, who who are doing, again, amazing work. I mean, one of the things that Nauik have done is um, well, they've done a lot of different things that are excellent. Um, they've been doing some work on the culture of construction um by looking at the things that, well, they did a project titled The Not So Little Things Affecting Women in Construction, which is a report on uh women's experience of microaggressions in the industry, and they they found that 88% of women experienced micro microaggressions in the sector, and 80% of those were verbal in nature. 41% came from their own managers. Um, and and alarmingly, people who experience those things don't see change if they report them and and and call them out. So, you know, those those sort of hidden cultural aspects of the industry that are often overlooked that really can impact whether women choose to stay in the sector is something that Narik have been looking into. But Nauik have just been awarded a five million dollar project under the Australian government's Building Women's Careers program that will look at allyship in construction, and they've partnered with some construction organisations and other groups around that, and I believe at Sydney University as well. But that allyship in action project is, I think, a really significant one because they're saying, look, if we want to get more women in the industry and retain them and create a culture where women can thrive in the sector, we can't just be talking to women. We need to get men as allies creating those cultures and and and ensuring that that the cultural environment in the industry is in fact supportive of women and um and and others in all people in the sector. I mean, we we know, for example, that that migrant workers and young workers and others are vulnerable to the similar kinds of microaggressions and challenges. So, you know, if if we make an industry that's good for everybody, then then that's obviously what we should be what we should be doing. It it will be beneficial for all, um, not just women.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Well, and it it it's interesting because it it ties in, there's this um the word that's being used quite a bit in America right now is the professionalism of our industry. Yes. And taking the professionalism to a different level. And several large contractors are going to 100% flushing toilets and sinks where you can wash your hands with water, um, you know, paved parking lots for employees to park their cars and and just professionalizing and going back to respect and behaviors. Yes. And um, and it's interesting because one of the things that uh runs around my head a lot, it's probably not you know, 90, 95%. Well, maybe I don't know. I don't know what the percentage is. I'd be curious with your opinion of the bad eggs that are causing a lot of these problems. I think there's a lot of unconscious bias and things that are being said that people don't even understand are a microaggression against a woman that constantly having to re reprove yourself, being asked to make the coffee, being asked to take notes in the meeting. Um, you know, I um, you know, I was president of a company in America, and and the people would say, Oh, you're a woman-owned business. And I, no, we're not. Um, wow, why did Mark and Clark hire you to be president? You know, well, maybe because I'm the most qualified person to be president of this company. So shining a light on this and and this program of men training men on what allyship looks like on the job site, and it's really just not walking by the poor behavior, but calling it out and saying, hey, wait a minute, that didn't feel respectful. Or I don't know the exact um details of their training, but but who who doesn't want to go to work in a professional, respectful work setting?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Absolutely. Look, we um we we did a study, again, an RMIT study a few years ago, we did a study of apprentices um in the New South Wales construction industry. One of the things that came out of that study quite strongly was humor, workplace humour, and how workplace humour can be very positive. It can be um you know used to relieve stress, you can have difficult conversations using humour in a way that's less threatening, it can build social cohesion, but it can also be very harmful. Um, and what came out of that study was a very gendered observation around the way that many young women apprentices in the study were telling us about examples of humour that they were accepting because they felt that it was part of the industry, but that was in fact highly sexual and sexualized and very offensive. Um, and so that led us to do a subsequent study of humour in the industry. We were lucky to receive some funding with the Master Builders Association in New South Wales and through the Women in Construction program with the New South Wales government. And we did a survey and lots of interviews actually with women in the industry about their experiences of humour, and we found very similar things that a lot of the humour that is used is is uh is actually quite offensive, it's sexualized, it's sexual, it's targeted, it's it's quite it's uh it's abusive and aggressive humour rather than affiliative humour. And and a lot of it's perpetrated by co-workers and some often by supervisors, but the impacts of that for these women is uh are very serious. So what that led to women saying the experience was the most common thing was we feel very embarrassed, we don't like being at work because we're embarrassed. That was the most frequent thing. But then close second and third to that was it affects my mental health. And the third thing was it it causes me to avoid meetings. So I choose not to go to certain work shifts, attend certain meetings, or do certain training courses because I don't want to be exposed to the perpetrators of this kind of humour. Now that is really harmful because it's obviously harmful for women's health, but it's also detrimental to their careers if they choose to avoid situations where they think they might be exposed to this type of humour. So that was a really important piece of work, I think, because it shone a light on the argument that it's just a joke, what's your problem? It's just a joke. Because when women call this out, the response they get is often, what are you talking about? It's I was only joking. But in fact, that using humour as a as a guise to actually perpetrate what is often sexual harassment or aggression is is actually unacceptable. Um, and so as part of that project, we actually did develop some training resources that talked about you know what good humour looks like, what what crosses the line, and then you know what you should do as an active bystander if you observe inappropriate humour in the workplace. Um those training resources are available, available on our website. But that was a very interesting piece of work. And for a really quite quite a small study, it's one of those pieces of work that garnered a lot of attention in the industry because I think it is so prevalent. It is so prevalent. We had a very high response rate to the survey. Lots of people wanted to talk about the about the about the work and about the problem because it's something that that many women in the industry do experience a lot.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Just think if we could scale that training, what the impact would be on the industry. And and we were we were talking, I I was always trying to bring research from America back to Australia and vice versa, Australian research to America serving on these two committees. And um, I saw a presentation in July of 21 of a CII study, and it showed that young men don't appreciate a lot of the behavior either. It was it was an age graph, and women were way worse than men. Like we're we're really not putting up with it, but young men were way worse than the older men. You know, they're like, oh, it's just the banter, it's you know, it's just the job site humor, it's whatever. And young men, and and and going back to the sustainability of our industry, this is about clean water, this is about energy, this is about heating our homes, this is about fixing our roads and having light rail that works and all of this. I mean, it's this is not this 300,000-person shortage. We have 500 to a million shortage in America. I'm not, I heard a number in the UK. I don't remember what that number is, but we we have to be doing things about this.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Um, gosh, so much to unpack here. We could we could probably go on for two hours, but we've we're what else did we find? And and and and there's so much more information in the white paper, and there's links in the white paper that take you to more information. And we can always connect um, you know, Linkin to Helen Lingard on LinkedIn and um find these resources because that's what we're trying to do is put a megaphone on this information so that more people go, oh wow, that training's available on humor, appropriate humor in um construction. You also looked, so you looked at nonprofits, you looked at Naywick, a couple of other nonprofits, and you also looked at some organization and project examples of things that are happening in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Yeah, and and this is where I suspect there's an awful lot more, to be honest, um, Gretchen. I think there's probably some really innovative initiatives being implemented by construction companies that may not be in the public domain and may not be easy to access. And this is where I think an organization like IWIC can actually really help to you know facilitate the sharing of those sorts of initiatives. But one in particular that I did observe was the Suburban Rail Loop Project, which is a very large multi-stage orbital rail project underway here in Victoria, um, have established the world's first all-women tunnel boring machine crew, um, which is, you know, I think tunnel tunneling is one of those areas in the construction industry which you know is probably something that that people don't assume you know is something that would be attractive to women potentially. Um, it's maybe one of those areas that is is is is is heavily male dominated and has been for a very long time. Um, but when this new all-women tunnel boring crew was announced, they had nearly well, I think they had 870 applicants to join it. Oh my gosh. Which which tells us something really significant about the fact that the challenges are not because women don't want to join the industry, because women clearly do want to join the industry. The challenges lie elsewhere. Um, but that that example of the uh of the tunnel boring machine crew um being all women is is, I think, a really um good example of where we can sort of break down those areas in construction that traditionally women haven't been well represented in. Um and and major projects like the suburban rail loop, taking the initiative to do that, really offers a great opportunity for for women to see and engage in in careers that they might otherwise not have considered. Um so that's another initiative that that we found as part of putting that white paper together. I do think that's the area of the white paper where there's probably likely to be many more examples that we didn't unearth. Um, and I think that's an exciting opportunity for future work.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yes, it is. We are um we are getting ready to turn on the story faucet um a little scarily at IWIC. Um we have a great management team now in place to do exactly this: to go to the members of ACA and say, here, here it is, tell us your story, here's how we're gonna share it. Um, and um that's the exciting part. And the other exciting part, and I don't know if you found this on the nonprofit side, because you talked to like build build like a girl. That's the name of I get all the names because there's a similar one in America. I get all my names confused, um, that are doing things with outreach and and so many nonprofits. There's a woman in um that I had the tremendous pleasure of meeting in um London last week, Rebecca Lovelace, who has pulled, has identified 88-0 organizations in the UK working on getting women into construction. Yes, yes, and she's putting together an MOU of collaboration amongst probably 50 of them on how do we um once again, how do, you know, there's I I use this analogy, it's like a little flame and a little flame and a little flame and a little flame, right? Not that they're insignificant, they're very important things that are being done, but how do we build that into a bonfire? How do we create connection, collaboration, leverage of resources, et cetera? Because a lot of these initiatives are underfunded. Um, you covered so much ground in this paper, Helen. Any any other highlights as we're wrapping up here that you want to touch? I mean, I'm just gonna encourage people again. Um, Iiwic.org is our website. And you go to the research tab and it's the top paper up there. But any other closing thoughts, just as you think about the totality of of what you explored in the in the white paper?

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah, look, I I I think one of the things that that that I would observe is that I spoke to so many amazing people uh because while I I did a lot of desk based research around you know the initiatives looking at websites and reports and so on, but I actually spoke to a lot of people as well. Um, and and what struck me the most as you as you just said, Gretchen, is that there are so many different organizations operating at so many different levels of the industry and focused on on different aspects of the problem that is multifaceted and multidimensional, that it is a very exciting environment in which so many, so many good people are doing you know amazing work. And I think the opportunities that you highlight to join the dots and bring those people together into a bigger collective effort is is actually very significant. Um, and and I do know already that a lot of these organizations know one another, work together, collaborate in lots of ways. Um, and those, you know, if that can just be continue to be built and that that that those connection points made, um, I think you know it we're really there's a groundswell, I think, of of good work that that now is the time to really sort of harness and and take to the next level of potential impact through that collaboration. I think that is actually the the next the next big step for this aim and an objective that that we're all trying to achieve. The other thing I would say though, and and this is something that obviously from my occupational health and safety background, I often reflect on. I do think uh the occupational health and safety um sort of platform, if you like, has a legal framing to it. So we now in in Australia have, well, we've always had requirements for organisations to you know manage occupational health and safety risks and reduce those to so far as is reasonably practicable. We now have new legislation that deals specifically with psychosocial risk and the need to manage psychosocial risk. And I do think that OHS platform is one that could be harnessed more to really highlight the legal responsibilities that organizations have for some of the things we're talking about, you know, the respect at work and the eradication of microaggressions and inappropriate humour and those sorts of things. Because, you know, it those things are not nice to have, they're actually legal requirements. And I think that's one thing that isn't probably sufficiently emphasized in the conversation. It's a good thing to do for the industry. We mean it we need more workers, but in fact, now we have a very strong legal underpinning for why organizations actually have to do this as part of their OHS obligations as well. So that's another element that that I think is something that needs to be talked about more in the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

I 100% agree. Our convening committee actually just identified all the, well, many, and I'm never gonna say all because you always turn up turn over a stone and find another one, but many of the organizations that are working on occupational health and safety in the United States. And I wrote down earlier um global behavior convening. Like what would that because that this is the ultimate dot connecting, right? A global movement. Um, so many organizations. Look at Simic, owned by Hoctif, who owns Turner Construction, who Tom Riley president is on our advisory board, Lango Rourke operating in the UK and Australia, McConnell Dow, South Africa and Australia. It's a global opportunity, and I think that's the exciting part is weaving together um all of this on a global stage. How exactly that's gonna happen, stay tuned for that. Um, but the appetite is there, and that was a really gratifying part about spending time with so many people in the UK um recently. I I I just want to end with my immense gratitude to you. I didn't know what I was gonna do if you said no, right? Because John's like, well, Helen, Helen will probably help us with this. And you said yes, absolutely. And especially being a new organization who's establishing our credibility globally, um, people are getting what we want to do. We want to share these stories. We want to highlight what's working, we want to inspire action. And so to you, to Dr. Michelle Turner, to the Australian Constructors Association, John Davies has been such an amazing personal ally to me as someone who hasn't been in Australia for very long. I'm sure Peter, the incoming CEO, will be just as supportive of this, and Catherine Greville. Uh Nawick, Australia. And we do have plans for a convening out of this white paper. So that is really the next step to identify, you know, probably 15 to 18 people. That'll be challenging to whittle it down, but to say what what what further conversations, what further bold conversations do we need to have out of this? What further opportunities are there for collaboration, etc. So, Helen, thank you so much. I really have enjoyed getting to know you and making a really great new friend in the industry. And once again, the paper is available at iWiciiwic.org. I encourage you to read it. We're going to be posting an executive summary of it as well, but it's got many links to information. And Helen, thank you for taking time today to come to the Women Thriving in Construction podcast to talk about the paper.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Thanks, Christian, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to work with you on it. It was very exciting, and I really enjoyed the experience. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Great. And I'm sure there's much work, much work to come and much more collaboration. Thank you so much. Interested in finding out more? Visit the International Institute for Women in Construction website at iiwic.org. Follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and definitely connect to our founder and CEO, Dr. Gretchen Gagel. Thank you for listening.