Women Thriving in Construction (Ep 24) | Dr. E: Building Community for Black Women in Construction

Dr. E (Dr. Egheosa Igbinoba) joined the Women Thriving in Construction podcast to share information about the National Association of Black Women (NABWiC) in Construction, founded in 1991 by National Academy of Construction member Ann McNeill. Dr. E shares that Ann "ran from it" for 10 years but then realized creating a space for Black women in construction was critically important. Dr. E shares that many members belong to other organizations and are even encouraged to join industry-specific associations to drive business opportunities. However, a Black-centric community that provides support through local chapters is vital to their success.

Dr. E candidly shares the challenges Black women face in construction, including reduced access to capital and assumptions they are in the room BECAUSE they are Black. We are not seeing enough women of color thriving in construction. Listening to this podcast creates higher levels of empathy and informs our unconscious bias.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Women Thriving in Construction, a podcast of the International Institute for Women in Construction. Interested in building a global movement? We are. We want to help solve the global construction talent shortage by highlighting organizations, associations, unions, teams, and individuals who are implementing strategies that help attract, develop, and retain women in construction. Join us as we reshape industry thinking. This is Dr. Gretchen Gagel, and I am so excited to welcome Dr. E, who is president of the National Association of Black Women in Construction, to the Women Thriving in Construction podcast. Welcome, Dr. E. Thank you. It's so funny because my students call me Dr. G. So we have Dr. G and Dr. E on the podcast. And I'm going to have you pronounce your beautiful name for our audience and tell us a little bit about. I love starting with kind of what led you to be passionate about what you care about today and how did you get into construction? So, first of all, your beautiful name for us, the name of your company and the different initiatives that you're running and how you got into construction.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

All right. So my name is Egosa Igbinova, Dr. E, and my company is Evolution Training and Management Solutions. We are a project management and program management firm with projects of various scopes, mostly in the tech and construction industries. And I'm also launching a new initiative called We Raise the Roof to develop more, get more professionals into the development space. So everyday professionals that may not have a construction or real estate background. And our mantra is development without displacement every time.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I love it. I love it. Such great work. So how did you get into construction? What did that path look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

All right. So that's a long arc into construction. So when I was growing up, my dad is an engineer or was he retired, but he has a PhD in environmental engineering. And so he did some inspection work and work for the county, you know, with environment and such. But he also, his path also led to entrepreneurship. So he was a general contractor when I was growing up. So I was always comfortable around construction spaces, around tools and understanding fixing things and building things and improving things in the built environment. As time went on, I was nowhere near construction. I was a biology major, then a music major, then a music teacher, but music teaching led me into business teaching. So I was a music teacher, and as it goes, sometimes music uh is not a priority in the schools, as we know, up and down, up and down. It just happened that I needed to look for a position. And by me being a business minor, I was able to find a position as a business education, a business administration teacher at a high school. And that led me to the world of career and technical education. And so we know under career and technical education is everything business, construction, um, IT, and so forth. And so from there, um, that led me into being a consultant in career and technical education, still leading me back into edging into construction. So I did lots of work as a subcontractor with the U.S. Department of Labor. And under there, uh what my job was was to become a subject matter expert across the 10 industries that Job Corps serves. And one of those being construction. And so I spent a couple of years digging into workforce development and construction amongst other industries, and it gave me um deep understanding of workforce development as it relates to construction. So from there, that's how I got connected with the National Association of Black Women in Construction, leading the education committee, and then now as the national president. So long story, long arc, but kind of a full circle back to childhood and being very comfortable with construction and now coming back to what I feel like is my um was always the calling. And so sometimes our lives just need to take uh a um a winding road to to your particular calling at a certain point in life. So I I am confident and sure that this is my calling for this point in my life.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Yeah, well, that's that's something that we share because really, even though I've been in construction mostly um since graduating from engineering school over 40 years ago, it was um Wiley Publishing asking me to write this book about women leading in construction and starting the women's leadership program in Australia that we talked about the first time we met. Um, that I said, wow, the universe is telling me that that my career advising General Motors, Intel, different companies like that on how to spend billions of dollars of construction in the most cost-effective way. I think I need to set that aside. I need to, I think I need to focus on how I help women succeed in construction, starting the International Institute for Women in Construction. And one of the greatest joys I have to say, it's funny, um, I don't know if you experienced this, but because you're a woman in construction, people assume you know everything about women in construction. Like I knew, I knew nothing about women in construction. I knew nothing about the statistics or anything. So it's really been an incredible journey to meet people, to learn from people, and to have someone introduce me to you. So tell us about the history of the National Association of Black Women in Construction. How long has that organization been around?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yes, we've been around since 1991. And our founder, Ann McNeil, is she's the current chair and she's the founder, um, is the first woman general contract, licensed general contractor in the state of Florida, if not the definitely the first black woman, if not the first woman all around. And so we're very proud of that. Um, and the organization has had a long history of building women in construction. And one a couple of things that make us unique as an organization, because there are several organizations for women in construction, is that many of our members are actually entrepreneurs. So um there are, of course, many women in construction who work for wonderful companies as employees and as leaders, but many of our members are actually entrepreneurs and small business owners in construction. And we also allow um, we are open to men being members because we have companies that are members. So anyone who is um who believes in our mission, part of which is to train the next generation of women in construction, hey, welcome to join us. So those are a couple of our differentiators, but been around since the 90s doing our thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah. Well, and Ann McNeil, she's amazing, a fellow member of the National Academy of Construction. I haven't had the opportunity to get to know her well, but but she must have had some vision. I mean, now I know starting things is hard. I've a year into starting IWIC, right? I tell my friends next time I say I'm gonna start something, tie me down and tell me I'm not going to. Um, but I love it. And Anne must have had a driving passion. What was that? What was she seeing? What was the the the void, so to say, that you all were filling for black women in construction?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

I I can, well, I'll try to speak to it. I know from what's from stories that she's told, because of course I've heard her um speak many, many times, and she talks about how she was running from it for 10 years at that that she knew that at a point God said, Okay, enough, no more running, you're gonna have to do this. And I think she just saw the void that um as black women, we not we have sort of the a double whammy, right? So already a woman in construction, but now facing um some of the spoils of being a um being part of a minority ethnic group in in especially the United States. And so the sometimes needing a space to be able to feel safe to grow and just be without the um added pressures that can sometimes come with um some of the other rising that happens, you know, in the industry. And so um creating that space for black women. And many of our members are also members of other um women in construction organizations, so it's not that it's an exclusive or but this organization is black women-centered and and centered around our concerns and unique, um, unique perspectives as black women. So we're part of other organizations, but this particular one is black woman-centered.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah. Well, in that safe space, when I when I started the women's leadership program in Australia in the pipeline industry, if you would have told me 30 years ago when I was at FMI that you were sending me to a women's leadership, I would have been, I would have said, no, I'm I'm doing everything to fit in with the men. I'm wearing my blue blazers and smoking cigars when I play golf. And, you know, I'm just I was woman number two at FMI in 1994. And um now I really under, and we had a woman in that very first cohort I've become very good friends with, and and she said, I I don't I don't want to be singled out, I want to just be in the leadership program with the men, but I thought I'd come check this out. And I've really come to understand that creating safe spaces for different types of people, be it gender, be it ethnicity, race, be it sexual orientation, be it whatever, it's an and it's not an or. It's like, yes, and women and men coming together to do leadership programs, which I also run, first-time leaders, but giving providing those safe spaces for people to be able to let their hair down and and really um converse about things, I I have a much deeper understanding of that now.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yes, yes, definitely. And there are some, you know, not every black woman wants to be a part of an association of black women, but we're here for the ones that that do want um and desire that that space. So you're absolutely right. There there still are, you know, there are some people who say, hey, no, I I just want to, I don't want to be called out or I don't want to be singled out. Um, I'd rather, you know, be um attached to the larger group. But for for many of us, especially those of us who are our members here, we are we are a part of the larger group, but also enjoy having that um the smaller um space and and a space to for black women.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Great. And before I forget, because sometimes I do forget this, where do people find you if they want to join you and they want to support you? Where do they find Nabwick?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yes, so we are at Nabwick.org, n-a-bwic.org. And we're also on Instagram, we're on LinkedIn, we're on Facebook, we're on TikTok, so you can find us on all social media. But if you wanted to find everything in one place, nabwick.org.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Great, perfect. So you you run conferences, you just finished a conference. What happened at your at your recent conference?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yes, so we had such an awesome time in Detroit. So we have a chapter in Detroit and we move around for our um annual meetings. We meet several times a year, and this year for our mid-year meeting, which just happened last weekend, we went to Detroit. Um, and the Detroit chapter hosted us. We had an awesome time hearing mid-year reports, so where each chapter and area, as well as each committee, uh, reports on what they've accomplished this year so far and what their plan is going forward for the year. And we took care of business, but we also had some awesome downtime events. So we were able to get a great tour of Detroit. So we had a van that took us around, um, and one of our members showed us various development sites and talked about all the wonderful development going on in Detroit. I was like, wow, this is wonderful. So there's a lot of development that has happened over the past few years that's happening currently, and then she talked to us about the plans for the future. So it's an exciting time in Detroit for construction for sure. I mean, you know, we're the our country is always under construction, but an exciting, an exciting time for revitalization in um in Detroit. And then we also had a reception, um, our closing reception, where we were able to honor um a councilwoman, um please her last name is King, that um she's a former councilwoman that both contributed and supported very heavily the skilled trades and skilled trades programming and Detroit. Um, and and you know, we just got to kick back, have some drinks, and listen to some great music with a DJ and and some uh refreshments and and have a great time there for that reception as well.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yeah, so 25 years ago, I I was going to Detroit once a month. I was working on the Rensun with General Motors and doing work with DTE Energy and all kinds of people in Detroit. In fact, I think my kids had Red Wing pajamas. I was in Detroit so much. Um it is a very, it's a very interesting um city and very multicultural and uh wonderful place. What were some of the highlights of what you all have accomplished through your committees and different things? What what is your kind of what does your platform look like and what are you out there trying to make happen?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah, so we have a cadence of events that we um that we put on and produce each um each month. We we always have a billion-dollar luncheon and is the virtual now since COVID, it became a virtual billion dollar luncheon where we focus on a different industry each month. For instance, transportation is in January. We do facilities, water, aviation, um, P3. And so each month is a different industry. And what we do is bring various agencies, government agencies on to talk about their billion-dollar programs. So this is to make the public as well as NABWIC members aware of where the opportunities are. What's going on in North Carolina with their Department of Transportation? What are the projects that are happening at the Atlanta Airport, Atlanta International Airport? We've had those sorts of folks on, of course, my home state of Florida. We've had Florida Department of Transportation on. We are hoping to have Prince William County Water on later this year for the water billion dollar luncheon. And so they come on and they share information about their programs, their capital improvement programs, and how people can find information and become a vendor. Usually during that program, we also have an association to bring greetings because we want our members to know you should not only be a member of NABIC. If you are in the facilities industry and most you're looking for work on in facilities or you're looking for work in aviation, you need to be aware and consider joining the associations that are for those industries as well. Because we're industry agnostic, except for we're the construction sector, um, but we uh encourage our members to join other organizations, and sometimes they may not be aware that those associations exist. So we bring those associations to make um greetings, and then we have time for people to connect in breakout rooms with a smaller group so that everyone at least directly connects with one other person. So that's um that's the billion-dollar luncheon that we have. We meet um at least three times per year, um, and we call them meetings and not conferences, but we have our annual meeting in January, at the end of January, where now the chapters and areas and committees report on what they've done throughout the year. We have our mid-year, and then we have our strategic planning, which is coming up in September. And what um, and I mentioned earlier, strategically, it is during the Congressional Black Caucus because our founder always says, if you're not in politics, you're not in business. She always gives us that quote, and so we make sure that we we are there to advocate um and understand what's going on in the legislative side of things for business as well, um, to get our members engaging at the legislative levels of their of the of business locally as well as at the state level and nationally. So our um, and then other than that, our chapters um have their own programming locally. So getting involved at schools, we have what we call industry day, where um each chapter and area is charged with connecting with the school and having what used to be called when I was growing up career day. But it would be um picking an industry and inviting successful folks that look like the students at the school to tell them about careers in that industry. Um, and we also have our hard hats and heels, again, locally, where this is just an event to now again highlight women in construction and bring women in construction together to fellowship in their heels and hard hats. And so um, those are some of the things that we have that go on um nationally as well as locally. Um, as each chapter locally decides what their program will be as long as it um it is related to our mission and vision and what the board priorities are for the year.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah, that's so amazing. So you touched upon the double whammy, and and I have a lot of friends, Denise Burgess in Denver, Suzanne Arkel, who just actually joined our board, who's half Japanese, half African American, um, a lot of uh women of color friends in the industry. And it's interesting because now that I'm in my 60s, I've had a couple of instances of ageism too. And it's like you know, so I got the sexism-ageism double whammy. But what what are the unique challenges do you think that black women face in the construction industry versus white women?

SPEAKER_00 20:13

So we have what we call misogyny, right? But now there's also a term for it because it's not a new phenomenon, but misogynist, right? So we have where the some of the same things, but I feel like it's um many times amplified for black women. And so the um assumption that you're only here because you're black. Um, someone gave you this job, and you could be the more qualified than even the CEO, but uh you somehow you're only here because somebody, you know, that that new uh profane acronym DEI. You you must be a DEI hire. But I have 20 years experience, a terminal degree, but I'm the one that just got a job because somebody just gave it to me. Um so we have that as a consideration. Um also just the it really comes down to again the doubting of someone's capabilities only because people have been, some people, and it's not all, um, some people have been um trained to think that just be because of the color of your skin, you you cannot possibly be um, you can't possibly be qualified or intelligent enough to do this job. And so just the constant feeling like you need to prove yourself. Um and then our other concerns really are not even as an employee, but as a business owner. And so we know that there are certain um our government has had to recognize, due to empirical evidence, um, that there are um. Disadvantages when it comes to being a minority business owner. Lack of funding, especially Black women businesses are funded the least when it comes to venture capitaling or venture capital, excuse me, or even bank loans, et cetera. So we know that there's still discrimination in banking. And so it makes it harder to actually grow your own business. We know that there is a lopsided there's lap, there's lopsidedness in procurement. And so if even if your business is focused on government contracting, as a minority, for the you know, reasons our social, socioeconomic reasons, we um tend to not be able to get as many government contracts, even. So from the entrepreneurship perspective, as well as the um the perspective of being an employee and having to just move around all these preconceived notions, as well as moving around as an entrepreneur, you navigating a space that's not made for you. We we are having to break down barriers because the space is not designed for us. And so those are some of the considerations. And I'm sure that individuals may even have their own stories to tell, but those are some of the overarching um considerations.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah, it's interesting. Oh gosh, so much to unpack here. I took a break from the construction industry, ran a women's foundation for five years, working to lift girls and women out of poverty, and went through institutional racism training. And that's where my eyes were first opened. I was in my 40s to the systemic barriers, the systems that are created through bias, etc. Um, I'm still a neophyte on the topic, but at least I've tried to learn and understand those kinds of things. But even my own experience, so when I came back into construction, two gentlemen that I'd worked with at FMI, Mark and Clark, um, had founded another company and they hired me as their president. So I would, I when I was president for five years, and I would say at least once a month, someone would say to me, Oh, you all are a woman-owned business. And I'd say, No, no, we're not a woman-owned business. Oh, well, why did Mark and Clark hire you as president? You know, and then it'd be like, Did you really just ask me that? Like, um that that's the only reason that they would have hired me as president, maybe because they knew they'd worked with me before and they knew that I could go break us back into certain markets that I had um clients in, etc. And so it's but if you've never experienced, if you've never been the odd person out, it's really difficult at times to understand unconscious bias. And and then another little story, and and then I want to talk about how we get more women and more women of color into construction. But my partner and I were playing golf with two strangers, older gentlemen, and and um my partner came over to me and said, Oh gosh, John, just comment on what a great golfer you are, isn't that wonderful? And I said, Really, it's not. And he said, Why? And I said, Well, because if I was a man, he wouldn't have gone over and you know done the pat on the head. Wow, she's a really good golfer, you know, that condescending type comment. And um it it really helped open his eyes to what that unconscious and that sees of so I'm sure there's men listening to this going, well, of course he was just saying you're a good golfer, but you don't really understand how that comment's made because it's it's um it's just made in a different way. So, yes, we all have to have bias. It helps us sort information, it keeps us from having to go to our prefrontal cortex, our executive thinking for everything, but being present to that bias and understanding these systemic barriers. So, what what do we need to do? Um, IWIC is trying to lift up these stories of things that are working to get more women, more minorities, more, more, more. It's a talent problem, right? This isn't a DEI thing. We have a 750,000 person shortage in construction in America and 300,000 in Australia, and about a similar number in the UK. How do we get more women and black women into construction? What's the answer?

SPEAKER_00 26:37

So um, awareness first, um, exposure at a younger age, but then also don't count out because of ageism, people who may be able to pivot and use those um those skills that are transferable into the construction industry. I'm one of those people. I'm not swinging a hammer, I'm not a tradeswoman, but my project management, education, leadership, program management skills have been used in the construction industry. And so looking at um those who may actually be interested and say, hey, I'm coming from another hands-on field, I I can learn how to, I can learn low voltage electrical. I can, I'd like to learn how to be a welder, I can learn brick bricklaying. Um, and then of course, like what Napwick is um is doing, many of us can be entrepreneurs and be job creators in the construction industry as well. So looking at all the angles um and not counting anyone out because of gender or even because of age, and because there are so many avenues and ways to be useful and successful in the construction industry because it's such a large industry and a large sector of our economy. Um, also starting, um I've been on a couple of panels before, and one um one that stood out where everyone, as we were talking about our background, everyone on the panel said that their father is the one who introduced them to the construction industry. And so I was like, you know what? That says something that says, dads keep doing that. Don't count your daughters out. If you if you have a construction skill, don't just only teach it to the sons because here I am on a panel with all these women who are extremely successful in construction. And they all said, My dad is because my dad was a business owner, or my dad worked in construction, and he showed me what he knew. And so kudos to the dads who say, I'm gonna show my daughter as well, and and not just my sons, about the construction industry. So starting young, but also not counting out the more seasoned uh women of a certain age that can actually enter the construction um construction realm and be very successful as well. But surely it begins with awareness first, because the awareness just isn't even there for many, and then the exposure and creating that welcoming environment so that they can't they don't come in and then leave because it was so uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah, we're doing a white paper on this right now, the retention problem that, and it's not just a woman problem. Young men are not gonna put up with bullying, hazing, um, disrespectful behavior on on job sites, and nor should they. And our, you know, our suicide rates and things attest to the fact that we can be a very, very hard industry, and we have to be we have to be welcoming. We have to be more welcoming of everybody and take care. Family-friendly construction is a phrase that I've been using this week quite a bit. Um, and it and it's interesting. So for Women in Construction Week, instead of speaking somewhere, I went out on job sites, and um, I was lucky enough, J.E. Dunn um took me to one of their um data center projects, and I got to meet with people, several people um one-on-one, and I did some videos, little clip videos with them, and Lucretia was one of them, and Lucretia's been a laborer for 32 years. Um, she makes 50, I want to say $56 an hour with benefits. She makes $84 an hour. I'm, you know, one was in the 50s, one was in the 80s. I don't probably have the right exact number. She said, I'm going to be able to retire comfortably. I never thought this would happen for me. And I've recruited 20 women into construction. She takes pamphlets to her church, to the grocery store, and walks up to women and says, Hey, have you thought about a career in construction? And I think about this movement building, social movement building, just like human rights building, right? Like, how do we create this movement that we are taking our industry out into the world and exposing people to it and and saying, come on in? But then we have to fix the culture so that when we do get those people in, they stay. Yeah. Yes. Uh Dr. E. I could I could talk to you for a long time as we're as we're wrapping up here. And I'm hoping I can come to one of your meetings sometime or something. I'll have to figure out with my travel schedule. I would love to meet you in person for our listeners out there, because it's not just about we say, well, companies need to fix this. You know, people are like, well, the big companies can afford to do some of these things like flushing toilets. And my comment to them is respect is free. So everybody, everybody can be respectful. Everybody plays a role in the culture of our industry. So, what can our listeners do, just as an individual, as a as a person, to more fully support black women in construction?

SPEAKER_00 32:13

I would say um, you mentioned it a little before, but I would say very simply, check your bias, right? We like you said, we all have bias, but start with checking your bias, and that's something that you can do alone because it can be uncomfortable to really come to terms with, yeah, you know what, I do kind of judge people on site, or yeah, I did have that preconceived notion about this person, and I was wrong. Um, so checking your bias initially, and then supporting organizations like ours. We're always looking for because you may not know how to do the work on your own, um, and you may not even have the capacity to, like you said, like a large company, um, do some overhauling program or hire consultants, etc. But what you can do is um you can support organizations that are doing the work. So Nabwick is one of those that's doing the work of supporting black women um in construction. So, you know, hey, put put your dollars where your mouth is. If you're gonna say I support, then put the dollars there as well. Um, but also just being open um to changing also, and and realizing that um that we all have room for improvement. And so once you've checked your bias, um if you really do see, hey, there's a way that I can change, then be open to doing that. And just giving every we all can work towards um just being um really truly having that, having equity. I know that's a a bad word, but we're not talking about equality in the sense that um everyone has to have the same thing. That's not what we're talking about, and that's not what equity is. Equity is ensuring that everyone has the same opportunity. And so then what you make of that opportunity is yours, but at least everyone had the same level of opportunity. That's what really equity is. Um, again, not to be confused with just giving everyone the same um thing, be that whether they earned it or not, but making sure that everyone has the same opportunity. That's what equity is. And we could go into what horizontal and vertical equity and all that, but really that's the simplest way to explain it, ensuring that you really truly have given everyone an equal opportunity to perform and to be successful. Um, and I think that's what hopefully we will continue as a nation and as a world, um, as we're all just moving through this life together, to continue to just, like you said, respect each other. Um, and I always say, even if you can't help, just at least do no harm, like doctors are supposed to do. Do no harm, and at least you've done that.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Yeah, and you know, you talk about it as a global thing. I had the privilege of having dinner with the National Association of Women in Construction Board in South Africa in Johannesburg in um November, you know, a country with 33% unemployment and um opportunity, this equitable opportunity, right? Um that everyone has an opportunity to contribute to what is an amazing industry, construction. We we're responsible for people having clean water, for people having power, for people having beautiful museums to go to and roads to drive on and airports to fly in and out of. And it's it's really such a wonderful industry. And I feel that everybody should have the opportunity to contribute. And isn't that what we want to do in the world? Is feel valued and um and contribute. Dr. E Nabwick is so fortunate to have you as a member, as a leader. Uh, I need to circle back with Ann. I can I'll I'll uh reach out to her and you can as well and let her know we recorded this podcast. But um, I look forward to our listeners learning more about Nabwick, determining how to support you all. And um thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your personal story and the story of NABWIC. Thank you. Interested in finding out more? Visit the International Institute for Women in Construction website at iwic.org, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and definitely connect to our founder and CEO, Dr. Gretchen Gagel. Thank you for listening.